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Old 21-04-2011, 12:20 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cillian >
What minstrel. Where on my sig do you see a minstrel?
Again I ask.. which legendary's are better than Challenge The Darkness?
Hmm I thought you stated you were healing with your minstrel. If not you then someone whose name looks like yours :d. If I'm wrong on that then I apologise.

Anyway I prefer as stated before :

Take to heart (1 min cd) + TTK (very low cd)+ Shield smash(very low cd though gated behind block). Occasionally I switch in Guardians threat (very low CD - insanely good when combined with engageswap)

Take to heart for the extra crit defence : due to my preference of being the rock of gibraltar and I hate getting critted seeing as that is the only way at the moment to minimize randomization incomming dmg wise. Which makes it easier for rks to heal.

TTK : I love CJ's

SS : I find it supreme for boss tanking.

So, sorry no spot for a 10 min Cd skill that I barely if ever use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cillian >
How do you know that? Your Minstrel got retired at lvl 61 meaning you've not healed it as a Minstrel.
I Know what I say because my Partner, who sits 5 feet from me, Heals me in that fight and tells me what it's like.
Based on my knowledge of my minstrel being maxlevel during SoA and Moria and it being the advantage at that time. On top of that, no big changes in mechanics for these characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cillian >
And the Tank can't give you that 9 seconds grace by using Challenge to keep the aggro for 10 seconds, and by popping Warriors Heart and Pledge? Seems rather strange that no-one would be willing to do that tbh.
I generally don't like to pop pledge or warriors heart for trash. If needed I'll do it, but don't like to do it. On top of that challenge at start is not good when healed by only rk, better to let him build attunements let the mobs hit the champs or some dps toons for the first couple secs then after the atunement are up challenge and start working decently on the aoe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cillian >
I'm not reading anything into it. I'm just going to ask why then do you not try and help others develop a better way of dealing with these situation? You know... give advice or request someone does a specific thing and a certain time?
When I Pug, I try to lead. Not because I think I'm super awesome, but because I like to think I can help people. If the group already know what to do and are pretty clued up then it's no big deal and we do it. If not then I TRY to give some advice and pointers. If they take them then they take them. If not then that's their problem. At-least I'm trying
I'm tired of leading of offering advice in real life. Don't wanna do it on my offday. I'm there to relax and have a laugh.
 
Old 21-04-2011, 12:36 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
First post you made you go on about teamplay, not mentioning minstrels at all only captain and LM's. No mention of pugging in this post, you do this with your friends no pugs involved here.
Was basing myself on me playing my LM, RK, Captain within the group at endgame since my minstrel is not at endgame anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
Challenge untraited works on 3 targets, gives you ten seconds to build more aggro than the person. Here you consider CTD as a skill aswell as challenge in which you use when there is no other option i.e a give me your aggro for 10seconds skill.. how this opinion changes.
Yes it is an option. But an option I would personally not choose to slot due to my preferences for other skills. If the CD had been 3 mins it would be a way tougher choice which one to slot then it is now for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
Here you say Fray the edge does not generate aggro.. here lorebook says this...
Skill:Engage - LOTRO Lorebook, Item DB: - Character Attributes - Skills - Engage
Think you meant engage. Again engage does not increase aggro. It gives you the aggro of the number one person. If you are number one you don't increase your aggro. Thus my basis as not a aggrogeneration tool. Although some synergies do apply as already mentioned by me in another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
You also said here you used challenge but not challenge the darkness, may I ask why? CTD is a improved version of challenge so the reason for not wanting to use it when here you stated you used challenge would be slim in my book but for some reason you seem to be adamant in this skill being bad.
10 min CD, takes a spot of the 3 from my legendary list. I find that there are better options from the legendary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
I have tried to ignore your terrible minstrel comments but ok.. do you even know a minstrel as you seem to have retired one.. spam BC LOL.. what can I actually do but laugh?
Naturally together with your ballad tiering. But for the rest my opinion is valid for when you are there to heal the most as quickly as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
Why can you depend on a skill with a 10 minute cooldown, this would be used in boss fights, maybe good for a boss that aggro wipes every so often.. is that being a crappy tank? No it's called using your head in situations.
I would depend on a 30 sec skill then. Namely engage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
Again this had a huge part about BC I have ignored, you use challenge then build aggro, if the champs getting out of hand say, "Used Ebbing Ire on me please," this gives you 50% of the champs aggro simple, they also have rising ire which they can use on any member of the party which takes off the aggro and then again use ebbing ire which gives it to you.
I know the skills and know what they do. But not my job to tell a champion how to play. If they chose to take the aggro they should deal with it. Either keep aggro or give it to me or die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
FH has a 32 minute Cooldown, it is a excellent skill but you can use CTD 3x more than I can use FH. CTD is a excellent LOOK AT ME TOO skill, why are you scared to click the button?
Mine is 24 minutes if I remember correctly. But might be wrong. Any case, I don't use it (EDIT clarification: CtD)because I find for what it brings the CD is to long. I prefer the other legendaries. If I had room for all my legendaries it might be different, but since I don't I pick and choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
Ok so you have no option when you pug? No pug has turned a rk down as there looking for a minstrel. On my warden I have been turned down as they think I can't hold it as much as a guard can.. thats there opinion. But you can say, "LFF LT 5/6 Need Minstrel," you know.. it's not frowned upon.
My point is that I prefer to go in with less then ideal characters, then stand waiting around for character X or Y. I hate waiting.

EDIT :

concerning the point where I got that depending on (thus using it as a stapple in a build) of using CHALLENGE (not CtD) for aggrogeneration as being a crappy tank. It is possibly still a remnant from discussions of 1 - 3 years ago. Don't ask me to quote it because it's not recent. But not like we have had very recent threads not counting this one within the guardian subforum. Maybe it was before your time, or maybe you read over it, but it has been postulated within here that if you DEPEND on the skill CHALLENGE as your way of generating aggro and thus use it every moment that it is off CD that you are in fact acting as a crap guardian. Since your aggrotools and teamplay of the group "should" be sufficient to let you keep aggro. With the exception of certain circumstances... ergo you getting a 10sec -100% perceived threat debuff where using your challengeskill is the tactic used to keep the boss on you... instead of hitting the challenge skill as soon as it is up as proposed by others within this thread.

Last edited by Walhalla; 21-04-2011 at 02:51 PM. Reason: clarification FH - CTD in one sentence
 
Old 21-04-2011, 12:51 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
Ok you say here FH is good but you prefer other things but it is essential.. eh ok.
No I said there that my preferred 3 is FH , HH and rally cooldown. But that for some the HH one is for me understandably debatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
You keep challenge for when you see a mob running towards the minstrel when it has a 30 second cooldown when traited.. ok why not used CTD instead there then and get the mob or you know let the champ use that IRE thing we where talking about above.
Because I like to be in control. Reason why I don't use CtD is because I prefer other legendaries. And to waste CtD on something for which I can just save challenge and have it back 30 secs later just not my thing. CtD would be more in my opinion for when we just wiped, I have to tank a ton of adds and need to get aggro from them all NOW and remain on top aggrowise. But I can count those moments on 1 hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardhuial >
So here you think that if someone used CTD they sit for 9.5mins doing nothing else.. that is extreme exaggeration to the max.
No, my point was that if you used a 10 min skill on trash, where you know you will encounter similar circumstances 30 secs later... I find that a waste of such a powerful skill. And thus prefer finding another way to handle it by letting someone else do it instead who does not suffer that disadvantage.
 
Old 21-04-2011, 03:25 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillosi >
I agree that some debuff mechanics are just plain rude for guards. But let's have a closer look to your list.

/snip
Yeah, I'm hoping that some of the more detremental debuffs, mainly tactical damage only bosses and No B/P/E* bosses dont continue through the game. I'm sure its possible to design a challenging instance that doesnt require a class to stand back. A suggestion could be 1/2 B/P/E so we can still use our Oh %^&* skills.

The debate about traits, although interesting, can be settled with "play how you feel comfortable playing" right?

* Durin's Bane would not be included as the fight is imo focused around that particular debuff.
 
Old 21-04-2011, 08:40 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JK_Collector View Post
The debate about traits, although interesting, can be settled with "play how you feel comfortable playing" right?
And this should be an ending line in this long and in places unnecesary dicussion.

The fact is that in LOTRO almost everything can be done in any set up, any trait build etc. There is no "right way". There are playstales that will differ but will have one thing in common: at the end of the day when there were no wipes (and even if there were, not every wipe is a fault of a tank not holding aggro) and everything went well, it doesnt matter how a tank, tanked. Tank has to hold the aggro or work with off tanks if needed. Different people will do it in different ways but all will keep aggro. Some minstrels will sweat more and some less but they will survive
 
Old 22-04-2011, 08:57 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Amen to that
 
Old 22-04-2011, 09:34 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JK_Collector View Post
Yeah, I'm hoping that some of the more detremental debuffs, mainly tactical damage only bosses and No B/P/E* bosses dont continue through the game. I'm sure its possible to design a challenging instance that doesnt require a class to stand back. A suggestion could be 1/2 B/P/E so we can still use our Oh %^&* skills.
Ay same here.

Would feel just as bad for champions if there was a debuff singling only them out (ergo no fervour buildup). Or RKs no attunement buildup either direction or hunter focus. Which was my sole beef.
 
Old 28-04-2011, 06:59 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FrozenNature View Post
And this should be an ending line in this long and in places unnecesary dicussion.

The fact is that in LOTRO almost everything can be done in any set up, any trait build etc. There is no "right way". There are playstales that will differ but will have one thing in common: at the end of the day when there were no wipes (and even if there were, not every wipe is a fault of a tank not holding aggro) and everything went well, it doesnt matter how a tank, tanked. Tank has to hold the aggro or work with off tanks if needed. Different people will do it in different ways but all will keep aggro. Some minstrels will sweat more and some less but they will survive
Very true did turtle yesterday, with a spanish kin, i dont speak spanish at all, they did not really speak to me, just started it, tanked turtle till i had 708 wound every 5 seconds, said you need to take agro off me, they didn't I died, then champ dies I think the warden was about 5th or 6th on agro list as turtle just pecked everyone to death. Communication is vital and so is understanding that communitcation.
 
Old 28-04-2011, 02:05 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Very true did turtle yesterday, with a spanish kin, i dont speak spanish at all, they did not really speak to me, just started it, tanked turtle till i had 708 wound every 5 seconds, said you need to take agro off me, they didn't I died, then champ dies I think the warden was about 5th or 6th on agro list as turtle just pecked everyone to death. Communication is vital and so is understanding that communitcation.
When I know there is a warden, I let the warden start the tanking. Either they let him die through gigantic buildup of dot (and rez through the use of RK rez) and you pick it up after they die (engage + guardians threat ftw) or they are good enough to do the swapping technique.

Although I have to state that in all the times I have done the turtle I just tanked the boss with the 5k dot or something die, rez and take it over when the other tank got to high again. But I did have the max mitigation for it naturally.

In the end the turtle fight revolves around dps dps and yeah dps.
 
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