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Old 23-04-2011, 09:17 AM   #61 (permalink)
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I don't think the house of Finarfin was the only line of the Noldor to sport the golden Vanyar hair. Glorfindel and Idril are two examples of this. Personally while I think it would indeed be a rare trait amongst them I can't help but think that given the length of time that the Noldor and Vanyar lived amongst each other in Tirion that there was a greater intermingling between those two groups than say amongst the Teleri.
 
Old 23-04-2011, 07:11 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andarne >
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Alqualondë - you are correct in your observations, save that the names of Minyar, Tatyar and Nelyar are different from the houses of the Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri. I did not state that they were different peoples entirely, save for their heritage.
It is however stated that the Minyar (all of them) became the Vanyar, half the Tatyar became the Noldor and more than half of the Nelyar became the Teleri (the half and minority became the Avari, though they were divided more than the Eldar).

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Regarding the weaponmolding comment, it was said that out of the three houses; those of the Noldor were the first to perfect the art. Remember, they were the craftsmen of the Elves in Valinor. As for the perfection comment, I did mean it in the way of "that which they deemed". You stated Silver and Gold, two metals that could very well mirror the Tree's.
Sorry, what? "that which they deemed"? You'll have to elaborate that. And I only mentioned the silver and gold to bring light to the fact that the Noldor weren't the only ones skilled or masters of crafting. It is more likely to have to do with the unique trait of the Teleri for some of them to have silver hair than the light of the Trees.


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Again, I did not state the opposite of your comment. I did say that the Vanyar left "no pure-blooded" Elf; only their descendants (i.e. interbreeds between the other two houses).

The rest of your comments are, indeed, valid; and I shall look to incorporating the correct information into the guide when I have time.

*lifts his hat*





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Originally Posted by Aglariel Anorfin View Post
I don't think the house of Finarfin was the only line of the Noldor to sport the golden Vanyar hair. Glorfindel and Idril are two examples of this. Personally while I think it would indeed be a rare trait amongst them I can't help but think that given the length of time that the Noldor and Vanyar lived amongst each other in Tirion that there was a greater intermingling between those two groups than say amongst the Teleri.
"Alone among the Noldorin princes he and his descendants had golden hair." Silmarillion, regarding Finarfin. Idril had a Vanyarin mother (Elenwë, perished at Helcaraxë) who passed her blonde hair to her daughter. Now this accounts for Eärendil's hair: however, his wife Elwing (daughter of Dior, son of Lúthien and Beren) had dark hair and seeing how Elros, Elrond and all their decendants had dark hair, it's safe to assume that Elenwë's golden heritage ended with her grandson.
Ah, Glorfindel... he's a bit of a conundrum. Glorfindel was among the first to be created by the good professor and as we know, some characters just stick (Ecthelion comes to mind). It isn't impossible that he is the result of a Vanya+Noldo marriage outside of the royal line. Though of course, Tolkien makes it worse by writing of Glorfindel in LotR:
"an Elf-lord of a house of princes."

All in all, I think it is safest to assume that all golden haired Noldor are of Finarfin's line, with the exception of Glorfindel who we just don't know enough about.

Last edited by Alqualondë; 24-04-2011 at 07:11 PM.
 
Old 25-04-2011, 07:14 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Yes, "Alone among the Noldorian PRINCES..." by which he means those of the line of the king. This does not account for those ordinary non royal Noldorian elves. Now if Tolkien wrote "Alone among all the Noldorian kindred..." I wouldn't argue but what he stated in my understanding is solely to do with those from Finwes line, those who are only allowed to hold the title of Prince.
 
Old 26-04-2011, 07:21 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I don't think the title of Prince is ever held though: it is mentioned (a house of princes etc) but I've never come across Prince Finarfin or Prince Fëanor. It might be that Tolkien means that "princes" are royalty or kin to royalty though not in direct line (say Celeborn, a prince of Doriath).
However, we only have examples of royal Vanyar+Noldor marriages. Not any other. Fully possible, but not a single shred of evidence elsewhere. I'll quickly add too that Finarfin inheriting his mother's hair (and spirit, suggesting that the Vanyarin blood in him was stronger than the Noldorin which is fairly unique in Finwë's family) and his children too, was cause enough to dub his house the Golden House of Finarfin.
Anyhow, even if there were more marriages of the non-royalty, that is no guarantee that it will grant the golden tresses of the Vanyar... of course, there are no guarantees that a dominant trait will win. Nerdanel and three of her sons with Fëanor afterall, inherited her kin's reddish hair (though hers was brown and she was a Noldo).
 
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